It isn't really that bad. What makes it bad is a combination of people
writing bad code, and people trying to support obsolete browsers.

XHTML 2 could come with navigational lists.

HTML is _not_ a GUI system.

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/

There are a lot of bad code out there.

Don't blame Javascript for the shortcommings of the users.

Absolutely. When it comes to web "programming", a lot of people with
little or no programming education are trying to get their pages to
work, and the results are, predictably, not good programming. So,
"programmers" is overdoing it.

Much code out there on the net is.

Hopefully never. If you want to create applications, use an
application framework, e.g., Java.

HTML is *not* a GUI system. It is a *document* representation format.
CSS is a document presentation format. Javascript is allowed to change
presentation and representation of a document, but a document, no matter
how dynamic, isn't a GUI, nor is it meant to be.

The big problem here is that people are using the web to create
applications, not documents. While there are reasons for doing that, I
personally don't think HTML will ever be the appropriate format for
that. Only time will tell what format will claim that niche, but
Microsoft is pushing IE as the recipient for whatever technology will
be used, and .net as their suggested technology.

And honestly, how hard can a pulldown menu be? A three line function
and two event handlers per menu, that is all the Javascript that is
needed. Add some CSS to make it look better.

---
<style type="text/css">
.menu {height:1em;}
.menuentry {
width:8em;
float:left;
}
.menu a {
display:block;
text-decoration:none;
background-color:#000040;
color:white;
}
.menu a:hover {
background-color:#004040;
color:white;
}

.submenu {
width:8em;
position:absolute;
display:none;
}
.submenu a {
background-color:#8080c0;
color:black;
}
.submenu a:hover {
background-color:#80c0c0;
color:black;
}
</style>
<script type="text/javascript">
function showSubmenu(id,vis) {
document.getElementById(id).style.display=(vis?"block":"none");
}
</script>
<div class="menu">
<div class="menuentry"
onmouseover="showSubmenu('submenu1',true);"
onmouseout="showSubmenu('submenu1',false);">
<a href="...">Main menu 1</a>
<div id="submenu1" class="submenu">
<a href="...">Menu entry 1</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 2</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 3</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 4</a>
</div>
</div>

<div class="menuentry"
onmouseover="showSubmenu('submenu2',true);"
onmouseout="showSubmenu('submenu2',false);">
<a href="...">Main menu 2</a>
<div id="submenu2" class="submenu">
<a href="...">Menu entry 5</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 6</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 7</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 8</a>
<a href="...">Menu entry 9</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
---
Tested it IE6, Mozilla FB and Opera 7.2.

Sure, you can make it hard on yourself by trying to make it looke the
same in every obsolete browser in existence (Netscape 4 and IE 4 are
prime examples), but Javscript code like the above actually fails
gracefully (just as if Javascript is not available), as long as the
"Main Menu" links gives access to the sub categories.

The CSS fails worse in Netscape 4, but that's not really surpricing.

Don't blame Javascript/HTML for the people who use it.
/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - [Email Removed]
Art D'HTML: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/randomArtSplit.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'

Tim Berners-Lee became famous by inventing a way of viewing documents.

Why don't you become famous by inventing a way of running interactive
GUI applications.

John
--
John Harris

What I was getting at is that given GUIs are being done for the
web, then a revised markup language or a new one is needed to
meet that demand. Java is slow and bulky and buggy. By defining
additions to HTML or a new ML, users could benefit greatly
and get on with their GUIs.

As for HTML being a document language, a qualification is
needed: it is a web document language. A normal document
language has concepts like page breaks, multiple columns etc
which HTML does not. Furthermore most browsers don't even
print it very well, so really it is a web document language
for emphemeral text, not for serious documentation.

It really ought to be scrapped or seriously revised, IMHO.

No but I can certainly blame the larger community for
not providing a decent markup language for GUIs.

Incidentally, this approach doesn't work properly in Mozilla Firebird.
When the pointer leaves the submenu, the submenu doesn't disappear.

How so? Is this something you're willing to pay for? Or did you expect
someone else to do it.


--
Life is an offensive, directed against the repetitious mechanism of the
Universe.
--Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947)

Because this is a matter for the standards organization to deal with,
whereupon all those who kneel and pray five times per day to Silicon Valley,
or wherever W3C is located, will see their wisdom and implement the
feature in their browsers.

What you are effectively suggesting is that I create a new browser
for a GUI markup language, which is a much much bigger task than anything
Tim B-L ever did.

Yes, I see it now. It is not always a problem, but sometimes, the
mouseout event isn't triggered when you leave the element. Odd.

/L
--
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen - [Email Removed]
Art D'HTML: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/randomArtSplit.html>
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.'